Bouquets and Brickbats

TENNESSEE: I have really enjoyed your articles on Promise Keepers. They are much needed in this day of increasing apostasy.

NEW MEXICO: We continue to appreciate your paper. The articles on PKs have been informative and beneficial. Keep up the good work.

WWW: Your beliefs are very wrong!!! I believe the Promise Keepers are a great movement for God and anyone who opposes their outstanding ministry and mocks them, displays many falsehoods about them, and mixes the truth about these great men of God is in a way mocking God himself!!! Why do you continue to preach your blasphemy when you know that you are wrong!!!! This page and everyone who supports it should learn the real facts about this ministry before they attempt to criticize one of the largest God centered movements this country has ever experienced!!! Why do you continue to spit God in the face and lie about his work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MINNESOTA: I read your article on the Promise Keepers. I agree! When I first looked into the movement (about three years ago), I sensed (through the indwelling Holy Spirit) caution. I stayed away...and am glad I did. In fact, I wrote to one major publisher (Rick Joyner of the Morning Star Journal) and expressed my concern. You might want to include my letter to him in one of your internet presentations. Just let me know if you would like to read it. Looking forward to hearing from you.

CALIFORNIA: You guys are as much in error as PK. You don't baptize for remission of sins as is the biblical model. It is as much a part of salvation as belief and repentance. It is not a work, it is the accepting of God's grace and God does the work in baptism. You follow Calvin as some in the Bible followed Cephas and Apollos. We all must follow Christ which is at least what PK attempts to do. You only follow Calvin

WWW: You seem quick to criticize Dobson by citing quotes from the King James Bible.
Have you done your research on Kings James?
He was a worse character than Dobson ever could have been.

WWW: God's judgement may be directed to you if your not careful about what you write about especially the Promise Keepers. We can argue this to the bitter end but let God confict Christians whats right or wrong not you or any other man. I Personally am living a better Christian life a closer walk with God, thanks to PK and their effort to disciple men according to God's Word the Bible. We need more Christian organizations willing to take a stand for Christ to help lead people to Christ or help Christians mature their Christian lives. I feel sorry for you and your hatred for PK and Dobson and I will pray for you.

WWW: Would you rather instead these men walk the streets drinking, murdering, raping and living the ways of the world. I cannot say I agree with all that is taught by the men who speak at these events but I do believe in their purpose. I have seen too many lives changed from these events and have seen the very people who committed the acts above delivered and made anew. If you truly believe in the words God has given us then what happened to the basics? Such as "to love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Judge not, that you be not judged." I was raised in a bible believing, Pentecostal church and I have seen blind eyes opened, cancer disappear, and within the last year have seen someone dead come back to life. I can't say that all men preaching the gospel are right but as for me I think I would rather God be the judge rather then for me to be judged.

[Editor to Randy: It appears that you are saying that all the men in Promise Keepers were "walk(ing) the streets drinking, murdering, raping and living the ways of the world," before Promise Keepers came along. Isn't it strange that the Apostle Paul did not have to have Promise Keepers to help him in the wicked city of Corinth?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God (I Cor. 6:9-11).

How in the world was Paul able to reach these people? He was only a God-called preacher and missionary sent out by the lowly, local church of the Lord Jesus Christ at Antioch. He had no PK rallies, no loud boisterous musicians, no coaches telling men when to fall on their faces in arenas. My, all he had was the simple gospel of Jesus Christ to preach and the backing of a local church assisted at times by other churches.

(I Cor. 4:15) For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (II Cor. 11:8). I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

Randy, have you ever considered that God used the ministry of these despised preachers (not popular coaches) and lowly churches for almost two thousand years to reach people for Christ. Yes, God was able to wash people from their sins in the blood of his Son all that time without Promise Keepers. Your blindness to these facts caused you to write as if the whole world would go to hell and would be a hell of raping, murdering, etc. if we did not have Promise Keepers.

Would you please send me the name and address of the person whom you saw raised from the dead? I would like to seek some verification of this.]

[Send Note from Editor: More than a month has passed and I have not heard from this correspondent.]

WWW: I sadly read your article about Promise Keepers. In a Christian spirit of love and meekness, I would like to voice some objections to your accusations about this group.

First of all, I am a Calvinist and a Progressive Primitive Baptist minister. I feel that it is imperative for you to understand that my doctrinal foundation is sound. So here is my understanding of the Promise Keepers.

You say that pentecostalism is the same as mormonism, and basically is not of God. Well, my conversion to Christianity came about under the preaching of a pentecostal preacher. So I am able to say with all confidence that they are truly godly people. No, I do not agree with everything that they believe. But I feel that they have some important truths that we sometimes overlook, such as prophesy and speaking in tounges. These surely did not cease after the apostolic era. However, I do not believe that everyone will speak in tounges and I believe that all Christians have the Holy Spirit. But I do not disallow these signs.

Next, the Vineyard movement is not "charismatic". Many of these humble and holy people have reformed backgrounds. Even if they were they are still beloved by the Father. They simply believe the Bible. Many people say that the Bible is the only rule for doctrine, to which I whole heartedly agree. But many do not believe that it is the rule for how people experience God. David danced. Saul prophesied. The psalmists played stringed instruments and shouted aloud for joy. The vineyard movement simply is a move that does not limit the sovereignty of God. How ironic that many Calvinists do. God can still give dreams, and visions, and healings. He is in the heavens, He has done whatsoever He hath pleased.

Next, I have attended the Promise Keepers meetings in Atlanta. I heard the authentic Gospel of Jesus Christ. There was nothing there that was "New Age" or of the devil. It was simply holy men being told of their responsiblity to love and honor their wives. Something that many ministers are too spineless or heartless to do.

I feel that I need to warn you of your conclusions. Do not be hasty to judge. God will hold you accountable. Make sure that you are looking at the entire Bible and not only a portion.

[Editor's Note: This Primitive Baptist Preacher is not representative of most PB with whom I am acquainted. I posted this message on the Historic Baptist Symposium and heard from several PB preachers declaring their non-agreement with this man. This man errs also in saying that I equate Mormons and Pentecostals. They are for from the being the same. They err in different directions but I believe both to be Satanic in their origin and unscriptural in their doctrines. Also, I was dumbfounded when he claimed the Vineyard movement was not charismatic. My research on this movement indicates they are extreme in that area including some who will fall out on the floor and laugh, roar like a lion, cackle like a hen, bark like a dog, and make other sounds that have nothing to do with true spirituality. On an official Vineyard WebSite in an article titled What Do Vineyard Churches Believe there was this statement, We believe in the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, who among His various ministries regenerates, sanctifies, guides and empowers through His gifts all believers (1Cor. 12:4-11; Gal.5:16-23; Titus 3:5). I Corinthians 12:4-11 names the spiritual gifts that were set in the church, including those which ceased with the completion of the word of God—the gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Vineyard churches believe those are still in effect today and are for all believers. On this point the Vineyard fellowship does not differ from other charismatic churches, contrary to what the writer claims. John Wimber, the recently deceased founder of the Vineyard Movement, claimed the gift of prophecy. On one occasion he prophesied that a western city would be destroyed in a very short time. His prophesied destruction date is long past; he is dead; the city still stands.]

IDAHO: I received our first issue of your paper. Thanks for adding us to your mailing list. I trust the Lord has restored you to good health by now. I think sickness is meant to be the catalyst that drives us to trust. More ready than ever for the articles on Church organization. I've been studying out the scriptures delivered in the article I brought back from Alaska. Good learning! I know you have got to be a busy man and I don't intend to imply you have all the time in the world to serve me. Thanks for your addressing the subject. I do trust you're feeling well just now. God Bless you and your endeavors.

WWW: I would like to begin by stating briefly what I believe: I believe salvation is by grace, not by works. I believe Jesus blood cleanses from sin, for those that repent and believe. I believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose again. I believe that the Bible is the word of God.

This is just a brief list of what I believe in order to tell you a little about myself. I read your commentary on the Promise Keepers with interest. I don't believe that you are aiming to be hateful to anyone, I believe you are doing what you believe to be right. I think it is commendable to defend what you believe. I have a good understanding of what Promise Keepers is all about, I have attended. What I dont understand is calling something that encourages putting the Lord first and Loving Him supremely, encourages the build up of marriage, family, spending time with your wife and kids, how to show love to your family and brothers in Christ, how to serve others humbly, (well you probably know what the 7 promises of a Promise Keeper say) I just don't understand how this is the work of Satan. It baffles me to hear such a thing! There is not going to be a group that doesnt contain some individuals that are in error. I'm not perfect and I dont believe anyone has ever been BUT JESUS HIMSELF! But finding faults insome individuals and then throwing the whole thing out the window as the work of satan, well I'm sorry that you are missing out on all the blessings of this AWESOME MINISTRY. I could pick and pick at any ministry on this earth and I could find fault. (but I won't) My job is to love my brothers and sisters in Christ and to love my neighbor as myself and to build up those that are trying to do good in this world. Why not go after pornography, abortion, drugs, the list goes on and on of the tools of satan you could be fighting, Promise keepers is fighting evil, why are you fighting with God's side, why don't you join us in the battle against satan, in Jesus' name?

USA: I ask you that one simple question? Do you really know promise keepers are all about I just telling you from experience that I am sure you do not and if you know that much you should next be able to tell me next when the Lord is sending His Son back for his bride it sounds to me like your being critical of an organization that is trying to help men get out of there slumber and get them back in the just of things being a cornerstone in there household as well as a good father and husband. Now I know Promise Keepers might not have all the answers but they are out there on the front lines in the heat of the battle taking on satan on the offensive now it sounds to me like your trying to destroy troops in your own camp. Well I am sorry you feel that way but there is some ministries in this world that I do not agree with totally 100% but they in there heart are doing the work of the Lord, so I would just encourage you to just take it to the Lord in prayer and see what he would have to do about it. I am not tellin you are not doing the work of the Lord either but I just want to say one last thing that is if your life is going good right now then there is something wrong because satan is not trying to tear you off the work you are doing of God.

WYOMING: Just came across your web page...very nice and inspirational!

We are based in Gillette, Wyoming and are missionary-church planters and helpers out here in the sagebrush, where the deer and the antelope still do play...

May the Lord abundantly bless your ministry there . . . If you're ever out this way give us a "holler."

ALASKA: Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. I continue to be blessed through your paper. I appreciate your stand and pray God will continue to give you wisdom and understanding.

WWW: Dear sir, yes I am the one who has written to you in the past now I have a friend over and I had to show him your article in the Promise Keeper section he also went to the Promise Keeper convention with me, he feels in his heart that this organization is a good one if they do not let the world take over there views and that they do the works of the Lord Jesus Christ, also as the Bible says in the book of Acts where it talks about the disciples that were being held as prisoners and later were beaten and released because someone said that if what they were doing was of God that it would not matter what they did to the disciples that the message that they were spreading would not cease but continue anyways, but if it was not of God then it would die out. So if PK is not of God then I do believe that it will die out or many Christians will discern the messages and check the scriptures to make certain that what is being done by the PK is of God. Also if this is a political movement then all the better to have "Chistian Politicians" in the government.

WWW: Is this hate? probably. if not hate, then certainly pharisitical. Sorry I cant agree with all your points. Keep praying and hoping. God will win at any rate.

OKLAHOMA: Keep up the good work. Continue to strive for the truth of God's holy word.

TEXAS: It is refreshing to know that not everyone has bought into this PK doctrine. I stumbled upon article four while surfing. I whole-heartedly agree and stand with you on your stand against PK and Focus On the Family. Contine the good work. Do you have any info on Frank Minerith, Paul Mier, Larry Crab, the practice of christian psycharitry, or the practice of hypnosis. Please E-Mail or post it to me. I would be more than glad to pay any fee that you might encounter.

WWW: Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ! I want to let you know first that He is my Lord and Savior for 22 years now!

I was doing a search on the Nazarene Church and came across your website with the PK article and Dobson. Very informing, and I will return to finish it in due time. I knew the dangers of PK, but did not know of Dobson's affiliation with it or his doctrine. I am a Baptist, but I have a friend who has joined a Nazarene church recently. She is blinded by the "friendship and warmth". She believes in eternal security, but sees the conflict as "no problem & minor". The church and the pastor don't agree on major doctrine. She does not see the danger for her and her children and husband. My heart is burdened for them. Can you help me learn more about the doctrine of the Nazarene church so I can help her? What do I need to get ahold of? Is there a book, website?????? Can you outline specifics of their doctrine that are not in accordance with Scripture?

I was not aware of their beliefs until the Lord put a heavy burden upon me to learn and help her. Their manual seems strange to me, but I can not but my finger on it. I only briefly scanned parts of it. I have to admit that I am quite weary and up very late working on this. I am going to do a little more, and go to bed. Thank in advance for anything you can offer.

WWW: Maybe you need to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and discernment. You seem to be way off base on your thoughts regarding the Promise Keepers. I also believe that you have stretched the truth when it comes to what Dobson teaches. As Christians, with the world like it is, we should be coming together in unity and not try to destroy ministries that are out to promote the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal saviors. No ministry that loves God should want to be a part of the devils tools to destroy another ministry.

WWW: May peace love and joy come unto you and your house through Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father who sent Him. I am writing you to lift you up in the Lord, for I to feel that there is an underlying spirit of deception in PK. I don't know if you are a fundamentalist Baptist or not and I don't really care as long as you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that He died and shed His BLOOD on the cross for our sins , and that He rose again and is coming back for his church. Before I continue I should tell you a little about myself, I am a blood bought Holy Ghost filled toung talking bible believing CHRISTian. Now back to pk I do agree that as God's word sayes " there be many spirits in the world, try them to see if they be of God or not" , from the very beginning when I heard of pk something in my spirit said ther is something not rite here. This is my little saying and you are welcome to use it "even though the outward apperance of someyhing seemes to be good the heart of it can still be evil" this is why Jesu told the phairasies that they were like white sepulchers all dressed up on the out side but dead mens bones on the inside. When I have studied and read the Bible ,when the Lord comes back it will be a reminent that he gets, by my understanding the church wont be in a great revivel my Bible tells me that the love of many shall wax cold and that men would rather follow the doctrin of men the the doctrin of Jesus Christ.

Finaly I just wan to say to you Follow the spirit of God as he leads you and lean not to your own understanding.

OHIO: I am also pursuing a PhD in Organizational Leadership. One of my papers this semester is looking at an Organization that might shape our countries values and ethics. As a member of a 4 person group we choose Promisekeepers. My responsibility is to present the view points of Christians and religious groups. I located your web site and downloaded some articles tonight.

Could you refer me to any other sites where PK is positively or negatively evaluated? I must say though I have not had the chance to read your material from what I see I agree. I have attended several rallies and have become very concerned about their lack of theological underpinings.

WWW: I just found access to your articles on the internet, and have been reading about the "cult", Promise Keepers. I'm not one to just believe anything I read, unless it's the Bible, but the article is very compelling. I'm a Christian, but I've never been exactly sure about the PK's. In light of what I've seen exposed here, I'd like to ask an "indirectly related" question. Do you believe that the spiritual gifts outlined in I Corinthians are still a viable element of the church today?

I don't follow any particular doctrine, I just try to understand what the Bible says, and have my heart yielded to Jesus. There are so many arguments out there, and I don't intend to take what you might say as "gospel". However, I do believe that you understand that the Lord holds you accountable for the things you say, so if you have the time, I'd like to hear any comments you might have.

WWW: I just recently found your web site while surfing for some Promise Keepers info. Like you, the men in our church have nothing to do with PK which is a classic ecumenical organization that has no doctrine behind it. I have not read all of your PK articles but liked the one I did read very much and it's exactly in line with our take on PK. Although I have not spent a lot of time on your web site it appears that your church holds strong to the Word of Elohim (look up the origin and the definition of the word "God", preferably in an older Webster's dictionary, and you'll see partly why we don't use "God" to describe the creator).

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